You mean Karasi the jumper (assume so if you were chatting to Scott)?

You're welcome. No go fuck yourself.

yes.
sorry for my typo.
i really must learn to check my typing before pressing the button.

I get the angle but it really is impossible to compare like for like. A handy stayer, maybe won an Adelaide Cup did he....? I know he ran fourth in a Melbourne Cup. He then makes a killing in fast run hurdle races in Melbourne and Japan where he was pretty much unbeatable jumping for silly money.

A champion in the latter category but its pretty narrow and I certainly wouldn't say that he could be considered superior to Black Caviar as a thoroughbred.

agreed. Brett and I started out comparing sprinters with milers, then middle distance horses, then stayers, then hurdlers, then steeplechasers. it got more and more ridiculous the further we went - one pair was Crisp and Tobin Bronze, which really should not be compared. both great horses but we couldn’t prefer one or another.

Karasi won the world's richest steeplechase three times in succession. how many horses have done that in any other category? we could think of Makybe Diva and not many more. in the great racing countries it’s very unusual for horses to front up for three successive runnings of their specialist event, let alone the richest running. it happens very rarely, except in jumping events. surely, we have to respect horses that win two or three runnings of great races.

i think the whole point of this is that comparison of horses is very difficult indeed. I really think the official handicappers’ opinions, in the international ratings, are fairly accurate. i look at the form for international races and notice that the handicappers’ ratings are pretty good. for example, if you had bet on visiting and imported horses in Australia over the last decade according to the ratings, you’d be winning very well.

Queally's the chink in Frankel's armour alright. He's gone close to butchering a couple of races iirc.

All you mucksavages pretending to know what you are talking about - It is not even up for debate, Frankel would beast home, the owners of Black Cav are silly to even consider this.

someone once remarked:
"anyone who wants to make a complete fool of himself only has to make an unqualified statement about a horse. the horse will take it from there".

you have completed your qualification.

Good points on the travel. Owners are more interested in protecting their horse's stud value than racing. There are some good horses in Britain but the UK prize money is really not that great and the actual racing industry there is relatively small. (Nice video as well BTW, mate).

I love the way the trainer of Black Caviar spends ages in that video slagging off British racing. He has been over here three times and not won and I'm sure we would love him to come back even though he thinks our racing is a load of crap and the Aussies train their horses the right way and have the proper attitude.

i am a great lover of English racing ... but, be careful with sweeping generalized criticism of criticism such as you have just made.

the weight of evidence is overwhelming to support a view that Australian training methods are superior to those of England and the rest of Europe. the evidence is very strong that horses transferring from English to Australian trainers tend to improve markedly and that those going from Australian to English trainers tend to regress quite badly.

truth to tell, though, there is very little difference in the natures of English and Australian racing.

Regarding So You Think, Coolmore Stud opened up the opportunities for him in the Arc and Breeder's Cup against the best middle distance horses. The horse ran very well and was not disgraced. But Peter Moody is still allowed to be critical of the preparation. He thinks it was mishandled and he is entitled to his opinion. He's paid a few dues in his time.

It's a sport and a business, not a mutual bukkake session. The patterns of racing in England are different from Australasia. Even Aiden O'Brien admitted he was still learning about SYT.

"He's a horse with a lot of speed, and we were probably going the wrong way with him in that sense,” O'Brien said. "Ryan (Moore) said they weren't going quick enough for him, and I look forward to going back to a mile with him.

O'Brien was seeing something from SYT on the track that he hasn't been able to reproduce in races. Eish. So he switched switched him around from middle distance to a miler. Anyway, it's all building up the interest and bringing in new spectators that were previously outside the sport.

All good.

Mate, understanding the horse and placing him to his best advantage is one of the most critical skills in training. understanding how races are run in differing places is another critical skill.

Aiden O'Brien has two strikes with Australia:

1. So You Think. with all the videos and the opinions of jockeys and many others including skilled professional race analysts available to him, it took Aiden O'Brien more than a year to work out that the horse is a miler. that is a disgraceful performance. strike.
2. taking three horses to run in the Melbourne Cup and driving them up to lead at “suicidal pace”, despite two having a long history of coming from the rear. inevitably, all three dropped out and finished in the last four. that was a more than disgraceful performance. strike.

after his farcical performance at the Melbourne Cup, one of two things should have been done to O’Brien: (1) his licence should have been revoked for incompetence, or (2) he should have been charged with two offences – not giving the three horses any opportunity of winning and team riding.

I was being diplomatic. But yeah.

look at all the horses Colin Hayes imported from Europe and improved by 5-10kg. that would not have been possible if they had come from competent trainers.

I am not going to argue with your weight of evidence although it would be nice for you to produce it. However he was slagging of our style of racing and saying the Aussie style was better. You are the one saying it actually produces faster horses. As for the "sweeping generalized criticism of criticism".. FCUK RIGHT OFF

I just had a look and there are 7 European horses in the top ten from last year and 2 Aussies.
http://www.horseracingintfed.com/resour ... 04_WTR.asp


You'd think the superior Aussie cunts would dominate the rankings and this Black Caviar would be flying around the world making shit loads of money taking out races from horses trained with inferior methods to the fucking master race aussie cunts.

where did i write that the "Aussie style ... actually produces faster horses"? i didn't. you made that up.

saying that Moody "slags off" English racing is very weak criticism. what Moody says on the video has been said many times by very authoritative Australian, European, American and Asian racing men and women.

the evidence of imported horses improving greatly when transferred to Australian trainers is overwhelming. anyone with more than passing interest in a knowledge of racing is well aware of it. try looking for the international handicappers' ratings (or Timeform ratings) for these horses before and after transfer to Australian trainers: Beldale Ball, At Talaq, Jeune, Almaarad (all to the Hayes yard), Manighar (Moody), Galway Bay (T J Smith) and one of my very favourites – Kingston Rule ( J B Cummings) who improved by about 20 kgs from his form with a champion European trainer. there’s seven for you. if you pay me a fee, i can find another hundred.

Cummings was very unhappy about losing SYT, he is usually far more philosophical. He basically said that they would ruin the horse and it would perform better here.

before you go further, please understand that you are confusing the horse with the training method.

i have never heard of read any opinion by an authoritative person that Australian (i.e. bred in Australia) horses are superior to those bred in Europe.
patently, they are not.
if the Australian horses were superior to the European horses, (1) Australian breeders would not spend vast sums importing breeding stock and (2) Australian racehorse owners would not spend large sums importing racing animals.
now, would they?

racetrack performances provide further clear proof of the relative strengths of European and Australian breeding - see the recent BMW Stakes for the latest piece of evidence.

training is a vastly different matter.

I never said he slags off English racing. I said on that video he was slagging off English racing. Fuck once he started the cunt couldn't stop. It was like a fucking therapy session for the cunt.
All the geezer said to him was on the world stage he couldn't think of a horse in the history of racing that had been a champion at 5 furlongs and a mile. Then he went off on one as if that was some affront to Aussie fucking manhood. Here it is right from that moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 84#t=1718s


I've never been one to slag off aussies but farking hell. Youz is all cunts

I think we've found biffer's specialist subject!

Anon.

best you change your "avatar"

i have seen that clip 5-6 times
what did Moody say that offended you?
your problem seems to be with the pom interviewer and his smart-arse "who are you?" at the end.

let me give you a clear example of what Moody was saying about Europeans "training the speed out of" horses.
At Talaq was owned by an Arab and trained in England.
he was trained to run 2400 metres and plus.
he was run as pacemaker for his stable mate in the Derby (at Epsom) and hung on to finish fourth.
he was judged by his trainer to be not up to top class and was “sent to Australia”.

trained by Australian methods, he ran the third-fastest 1200 metres ever at Lindsay Park – you’d agree that that is pretty quick?
Hayes wanted to train the horse for the Newmarket Handicap.
the owner and his English racing manager insisted that the horse be trained for the Melbourne Cup.
Hayes went with what the owner wanted.
the horse won the Melbourne Cup.

next preparation, At Talaq ran the legs off just about the best sprinter in the country at 1400 metres.
two starts later he ran the great Bonecrusher to an inch at 2000 metres after suffering an injury when in front with 30 metres to go.
he could not possibly have produced that speed under English training methods.

Moody’s assessment is pretty accurate.

why are you, a pom, upset by Moody blasting an Irishman’s incompetence?

it's one side line i've been involved in for most of my life.

Here is the Melbourne Cup you spoke of Biffer.

Inexplicable, almost unprecendented and just shockingly poor from O'Brien's team. Any other trainer would have been heavily sanctioned by the stewards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYLTzXFVcb0

the evidence is very conclusive that Bart was right, isn't it?

O'Brien is going to have to improve his training by 8-10 kgs to prove Bart wrong.
he can't.
he's had 18 months.
what makes anyone think that he will improve with another six months?

The havn't improved SYT at all. His first prep was the best and he should have won them all, certainly the POW when he was absolutely slaughtered by the jockey.

His program since then has been very strange at best. The Arc, where again he was ridden completely against his best pattern then on to the dirt for the BC and WC?

Pretty ordinary the handling of the horse for mine.

Still, Chin Nam got his 30 million.

So You Think has gone a long way backwards with Mr O'Brien.
i'm too lazy to look but i'd be interested to know how far Mr O'Brien has reduced the horse's official and Timeform ratings.

i don't think Dato would be so concerned about the 30 mil
owning Maybank is a nice little earner

This thread is probably one of the better examples I have seen on the bored in recent times of someone who clearly knows what they are on about (Biffer) vs. someone who doesn't have a fucking clue (Anon).

Exactly. Minted beyond belief, insanely lucky as an owner, you have to wonder why he did it.

Can you imagine what SYT under Bart would have done to that Cox Plate field last spring.

It might well appear to be overwhelming because some owners and trainers are smart enough to transfer horses from Europe to Australia or the USA because the horses suit the climate, style of racing, type of track etc better than they do in Europe.

For example some years in the Breeders Cup the Americans hammer the European horses and yet when they ran in 2008 at Santa Anita the European horses looked the far stronger and that was due to just a slightly less tight track and a different dirt surface.

total agree.
massacre of last year's field.
the only thing that would have stopped So You Think winning four Cox Plates is Atlantic Jewel.

i think ego and the desire to be on the big stage got the better of Dato's judgement.
we know that he sold (but he sold only part!) of the horse without consulting Bart.
that was not smart.

if money was the motive, he could have won far more in Australia.
given Australia's rising global profile, the horse's stud value would not have been affected by staying in Australia.

given their common ownership, i wonder if Atlantic Jewel will be sent to So You Think as her first mating?

The problem with this Aussie is best shit is horses for courses is a truism. Just because certain horses are sent to Australia because their connections think they will do better there it does not mean any horse sent to Australia would improve. If Aussie trainers and methods were the fucking best in the world they would be adopted quick smart everywhere and Aussie trainers would be flown in to take charge of the great criminal revolution.

It's not fucking happening though is it

thanks.
how he avoided having his licence revoked for total incompetence is beyond me.

Maybe they're transported here because they're horses of poor character.

Hmm, aggressive attitudes; I think I'll stick to the National Hunt.

i am disappointed that you haven't commented on the cases i have laid out for you.
nevertheless, i will try further to get my message across.

can you please look at Gtaaf's video and give us your opinion on a few things:

1) are you suggesting that the European- and Australian- trained horse in that video are racing in different climates? my impression is that the climate is the same for all.
2) what do you think of Mr O'Brien's training performance in the video?
3) won't you agree that the winner was very well trained?
4) in the paradise of European racing, would Mr O'Brien been charged with stopping his runners or with rank incompetence?

for your information, the winner was trained by Mr J B Cummings.
the evidence of your eyes must be that Mr Cummings out-trained Mr OBrien by much more than 20 kgs, mustn't it?
it's no wonder that Mr O'Brien has been able to degrade So You Think so much.

there is no incentive for most Australian trainers to go abroad.
at the top, the prizemoney relative to costs and breeding value is little different among the major racing countries.
where there is big punting and prizemoney (e.g. Singapore, Malaysia, Hongkong) Australian trainers are well represented and their methods lead the way for other trainers.

finally, what is your assessment of Atlantic Jewel?

aren't we all?

i really love the old joke about Australians having the best human breeding stock in the world, because it was selected by the best of English judges.

why do i like that one so much?

i really love the National Hunt.
yes, it's non-aggressive.
living in England all those years ago i went at every opportunity
i am not going to tell you which Gold Cups i saw.

did you notice that i introduced Karasi and Crisp to this discussion about Black Caviar and Frankel?
that’s lurve for a good jumping horse.