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anonymous_joe
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 10:45 am 
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bealonian wrote:
Am I missing something here? If it wasn't uneconomic for coal production in the UK, private companies (never known to be shy of making a bob or two) would have picked up the baton after the govt. decided they didn't want a nationalised coal industry anymore. Doesn't the fact that this hasn't happened suggest that the industry was in decline in UK and not worth pursuing?


It's more than that though.

It's not necessarily the case that an industry needs to make a profit to be viable, if it's state run.

The mistake of the mines was to close them all too quickly. Of course, with the unions and the then British government diametrically opposed, a calm and sensible policy of closing them over 10 or even 20 years wasn't really adopted.
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Torquemada 1420
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 10:49 am 
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anonymous_joe wrote:
bealonian wrote:
Am I missing something here? If it wasn't uneconomic for coal production in the UK, private companies (never known to be shy of making a bob or two) would have picked up the baton after the govt. decided they didn't want a nationalised coal industry anymore. Doesn't the fact that this hasn't happened suggest that the industry was in decline in UK and not worth pursuing?


It's more than that though.

It's not necessarily the case that an industry needs to make a profit to be viable, if it's state run.

The mistake of the mines was to close them all too quickly. Of course, with the unions and the then British government diametrically opposed, a calm and sensible policy of closing them over 10 or even 20 years wasn't really adopted.


It's even more complex than that. There was a study conducted by Imperial (I think) around the time which factored in things like
- subsidies being used to support nuclear
- the cost of future clean up of nuclear
etc

which indicated that UK mines were a far better economic alternative than implied. I don't have a copy of it now.


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anonymous_joe
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 10:59 am 
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Makes sense, Torq. It was clearly a decision effected by ideological concerns.
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bealonian
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 11:22 am 
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indomite wrote:
bealonian wrote:
Am I missing something here? If it wasn't uneconomic for coal production in the UK, private companies (never known to be shy of making a bob or two) would have picked up the baton after the govt. decided they didn't want a nationalised coal industry anymore. Doesn't the fact that this hasn't happened suggest that the industry was in decline in UK and not worth pursuing?


Ah you got me, the private sector hasn't taken a single ton of coal out of the ground since 1985.

G' night.

Helpful answer indo. Assuming that there was still a viable industry, I assume that private enterprise would have filled in (pun intended) the void left by the govt.

If there are private companies running still coal mines (as you infer), is this the free market at work?

Perhaps it's as anonymous_joe said, and the closure of the less viable mines all happened too quickly.
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indomite
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 9:06 pm 
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bealonian wrote:
indomite wrote:
bealonian wrote:
Am I missing something here? If it wasn't uneconomic for coal production in the UK, private companies (never known to be shy of making a bob or two) would have picked up the baton after the govt. decided they didn't want a nationalised coal industry anymore. Doesn't the fact that this hasn't happened suggest that the industry was in decline in UK and not worth pursuing?


Ah you got me, the private sector hasn't taken a single ton of coal out of the ground since 1985.

G' night.

Helpful answer indo. Assuming that there was still a viable industry, I assume that private enterprise would have filled in (pun intended) the void left by the govt.

If there are private companies running still coal mines (as you infer), is this the free market at work?

Perhaps it's as anonymous_joe said, and the closure of the less viable mines all happened too quickly.


Three words in Google: uk coal industry

If anybody wants to wade through some economic analysis, from different perspectives

The Costs and Benefits of Coal Pit Closures

http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=JGTh ... &q&f=false
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backrow
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 9:43 pm 
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indomite wrote:
backrow wrote:
Iirc the economics of Yorkshire pits and those in the midlands, were far better than the welsh ones, whose resources had been played out. Probably why there are still a few pits in England working economically, without the burdens of bolshie unions.

Sweeping generalisations were all I had time for on my posts, saves time though and is merely an opposing view to the equally sweeping generalisations that everything thatcher did was nasty and wrong.

How would the lefties think of their labour if it was more well known that it was labour that actually wanted to close the majority of mines in the 70s, but magpie got in and actually had the balls to do it.
Who knows what labour would have done differently had they been in power up till 85 , probably not much different seeing as there was bugger all money left ( a recurring theme where labour is involved)


You'd have to ask them.

But seeing as you see yourself as a rightie. How do you feel about the Conservatives attempts to nationalise the steel industry.


eh ? pretty sure Labour nationalised Steel back in the late sixties

or do you mean Privatise ? most privitisations didn't exactly run that smooth, think BSC became Corus and got taken over by Tata eventually. without looking it up i don't know that much about it tbh, but as a rightie I don't automatically think privatisation is good, esp as its often just flogging the family silver to whoever needs the smallest bribe.
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Northumbrian
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 10:32 pm 
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I hope she dies the day before the Olympics start... That way we could pretend the opening ceremony was a national day of celebration... :lol:
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indomite
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 9:01 am 
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backrow wrote:
indomite wrote:
backrow wrote:
Iirc the economics of Yorkshire pits and those in the midlands, were far better than the welsh ones, whose resources had been played out. Probably why there are still a few pits in England working economically, without the burdens of bolshie unions.

Sweeping generalisations were all I had time for on my posts, saves time though and is merely an opposing view to the equally sweeping generalisations that everything thatcher did was nasty and wrong.

How would the lefties think of their labour if it was more well known that it was labour that actually wanted to close the majority of mines in the 70s, but magpie got in and actually had the balls to do it.
Who knows what labour would have done differently had they been in power up till 85 , probably not much different seeing as there was bugger all money left ( a recurring theme where labour is involved)


You'd have to ask them.

But seeing as you see yourself as a rightie. How do you feel about the Conservatives attempts to nationalise the steel industry.


eh ? pretty sure Labour nationalised Steel back in the late sixties

or do you mean Privatise ? most privitisations didn't exactly run that smooth, think BSC became Corus and got taken over by Tata eventually. without looking it up i don't know that much about it tbh, but as a rightie I don't automatically think privatisation is good, esp as its often just flogging the family silver to whoever needs the smallest bribe.


They did, Labour that is, but they first did so back in 1949 under Attlee.

I was having a bet with myself.
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backrow
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 9:28 am 
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indomite wrote:
backrow wrote:
indomite wrote:
backrow wrote:
Iirc the economics of Yorkshire pits and those in the midlands, were far better than the welsh ones, whose resources had been played out. Probably why there are still a few pits in England working economically, without the burdens of bolshie unions.

Sweeping generalisations were all I had time for on my posts, saves time though and is merely an opposing view to the equally sweeping generalisations that everything thatcher did was nasty and wrong.

How would the lefties think of their labour if it was more well known that it was labour that actually wanted to close the majority of mines in the 70s, but magpie got in and actually had the balls to do it.
Who knows what labour would have done differently had they been in power up till 85 , probably not much different seeing as there was bugger all money left ( a recurring theme where labour is involved)


You'd have to ask them.

But seeing as you see yourself as a rightie. How do you feel about the Conservatives attempts to nationalise the steel industry.


eh ? pretty sure Labour nationalised Steel back in the late sixties

or do you mean Privatise ? most privitisations didn't exactly run that smooth, think BSC became Corus and got taken over by Tata eventually. without looking it up i don't know that much about it tbh, but as a rightie I don't automatically think privatisation is good, esp as its often just flogging the family silver to whoever needs the smallest bribe.


They did, Labour that is, but they first did so back in 1949 under Attlee.

I was having a bet with myself.


ah, didn't know how far back in time you were going. what was the bet ? my historical knowledge, or just how right wing i am ?
i do vote Tory, but do not remotely think all their policies are / have been good, either for themselves or the country, and implementation has often been appaling. But they don't tend to spend cash that isnt there, unlike Labour, which is the single biggest reason they get my vote.

top of my anti tory / pro Labour opinion, is anything to do with the NHS.
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indomite
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 9:45 am 
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ah, didn't know how far back in time you were going. what was the bet ? my historical knowledge, or just how right wing i am ?
i do vote Tory, but do not remotely think all their policies are / have been good, either for themselves or the country, and implementation has often been appaling. But they don't tend to spend cash that isnt there, unlike Labour, which is the single biggest reason they get my vote.

top of my anti tory / pro Labour opinion, is anything to do with the NHS.


Wasn't for you, yeeb, particularly. Everyone forgets Attlee and I was being, as I said a little silly.

As for the NHS, you should treasure it - I've lived in the US, it's a terrible system.

I like to think I take a long view on things, and as someone who studied some history, particularly 19th/early 20th century British history, I am alternately bemused and appalled by the real ignorance of what the trade union movement and the Labour Party did for the common folk.

I also hold little truck with those who paint Blair's Nu Labour as being anything like a centre left, progressive party.
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Anonymous
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:47 pm 
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Northumbrian wrote:
I hope she dies the day before the Olympics start... That way we could pretend the opening ceremony was a national day of celebration... :lol:

The Olympics would at least be an antidote to the inevitable avalanche of shit about the bitch on the TV
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