i was appalled to see this man play on after being knocked quite out on saturday - surely the ref should have sent him off.

Traditional to post some type of link so everyone knows what you are talking about.

+1 shockingly dangerous.

Seems results are more important than the safety of players, when does the compulsory layoff for concussions kick in? If he is taken off?

sheesh, elstadt is a dirty fucker.

That is a disgrace that he was allowed to play on. He was clearly out before he hit the floor.

Wow - that a bit sickening.... Aplon got smashed... he crumbles like a rag doll (i' can even sit like that anymore)...

KG

The only excuse would be if the player himself told the medical staff that he was only dazed and didn't actually blackout! Looked grim though!!

i agree,



worst still was the Boks v Eng recent series when a bok was down on the 1/2 way line with what appeared to be a serious neck injury (he was later stretchered off). Even with a clear break in play (penalty and lineout to Eng) he allowed play to continue, the boks down a forward conceded a try from the line-out. Utterly despicable behavior from the referee.

Homer's back!

you're just lucky I never got to see Vinny Munro's 'antics' this weekend.

you'ld be left slumped like aplon in the video.

Like i said on the match thread, crazy.

That was a truly horrible wallop (from his own team-mate, was it not?) and Aplon did not look a well fella.

He really should have been shooed off the paddock for his own good.

As a referee there is no way in hell I am over ruling a medically trained professional. The physios for the teams here are all trained and paid for, they have the insurance etc and if they say the player can continue then I am not going to over rule them.

Elstadt is a filthy player. Couldn't believe the Stormer's medical staff let Aplon play on, unconscionable.

This is where the blame lies for this incident.

Mate, I know where you are coming from, and neither you or I would get to see those replays (neither did our colleague in this match), but if you do actually see a player in that condition, there's no way you let him stay on.

The medics that allowed Aplon to remain on the pitch should be brought before an investigative board of some kind. The guy was utterly out cold, there is no excuse for letting him play on.

How about when Hooper was knocked out against the Canes?

He went to get up, and then staggered for about 5m and fell over...

Yet he was good to go.

Here we go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9AGRPAAZuQ

30 seconds in. What a disgrace!

Luckily because I referee mostly amateur players the medics are pretty quick smart in getting them off the pitch. Another lucky break we have in Melbourne is that our 1st grade games get 8 "interchanges" so I have actually suggested to teams to take the player off and assess him and then if he is good to come back on he can but it will cost them 2 subs.

I was listening live on Saffer radio. The commentators were a little suprised he was playing on but quickly talked up his toughness in doing so.

I hate seeing it, especially after hearing guys like Steve Devine talk about the hell they've gone through after one too many concussions. It may take something really awful happening live on tv to make real change to how concussions are treated.

The IRB really need to step up here. It should be enshrined in the laws of the game that if a player is knocked out, then that is his game over for the day. There should also be a minimum time off from practice and playing. No ifs buts or maybes. Player welfare is paramount.

I agree. Apparently there was a "concussion bin" at the U20s in which a player with a head knock could be taken off for 10-15 minutes to be assessed to see if he could continue playing. Seems like a good idea IMO.

Is there an independent medical officer at club/super/internationals?

There is a match day doctor who helps out with bleeding wounds, stitching etc. They don't do things about concussion though IIRC.

If the various unions and governing bodies don't do something about this, they are going to be justifiably sued by a player who winds up with serious long-term health issues after an incident like this.

There's no way Aplon should have been allowed to continue. To his credit, he played pretty well despite probably not knowing which planet he was on. But imagine if he'd taken an even more serious injury due to his dazed condition.

The medical staff should have taken him off immediately.

The teams are probably thinking, "Hey, we're paying $X for this player, we want him out there no matter what so we can get our money's worth."

What they aren't thinking about is a costly lawsuit from not taking appropriate care of players which will hit them in the pocketbook a lot harder than a missed game or two due to concussion. Stupid all around and no one wins ...

I am nowhere near the level ref you two are but Hooks, I gotta agree with EF. Only because from a legal standpoint you can say, I took the word of the professionals. At that level, I would make it known to the Coach and medical staff with an AR as my witness that I am not comfortable with this idea but will allow it as the medical staff are the pros.

Can we also quickly talk about how Elstadt flew into the ruck leading with his elbow? He hit Aplon, but it could just as easily have been a Rebels player. Almost think that sort of thing should be brought up before SANZAR.

On Aplon though, complete failure of duty of care towards the player by both the medical staff and the referee. The medical staff should have dragged him straight away, then when they didn't the ref should have put his foot down and said no chance.

Not our place to over rule the medically trained professionals.

Like IH said, it is your place.

Like I have said in here, no chance I am saying to a player he can't continue when his doctor has given him the all clear.

The issue of head injuries will come up time and time again. There was an interesting Australian documentary a couple of months back about the long-term effects of head injuries. Sadly, the long-term health effects of head injuries can be deadly serious.

I saw this incident live, and I wondered what the hell the doctors were doing letting him play on. I know a clinical decision to pull a player from a game may be unpopular with the player, however if this guy was boxing in a ring the ref would have stopped the fight or the boxer's corner would have thrown in the towel.

I believe that the decision for a player to play on in the game after a head knock, or to play the next game(s) following a concussion should be removed from the player (and match officials), and be entrusted with the doctors. Furthermore, if a doctor makes a clinical decision to stand a player standing down from playing for 3 weeks, the doctor's decision should be considered final until a second medical opinion proves otherwise. You wouldn't let a blind man drive a bus, so why let somebody play if there's a good chance of a serious injury?

You guess are debating a letter of the law versus spirit of the law. What the law states and its intention, are two separate things.

THIS! As a coach, I told our therapist to run on at the first sign of trouble and that it's always HER call as to whether a player continues. I've taken guys off and played down a man when we'd used all our subs (and the other team, in an amateur league, were being dicks about a head knock not being a 'blood sub' ... which, in one case, was the result of an elbow from one of their players whose action went unsighted!).

I see too many of those on tv where the guy was obviously out. Aplon's is one of the worst I've seen in a while, though Michael Hooper's earlier this season was really bad as well. He, too, was out before he hit the ground - and early in the game, if I recall - and ended up finishing it. Very irresponsible. Remember another in an Origin match when I was in Oz - guy hit in the back of the head with a kicked ball, out before he hit, stumbled around refusing treatment and came back on in an interchange. Bullshit.

As more research is done on the brain, and more high profile incidents involving suicide, ALS, depression, etc. that could be the result of concussions, I'm waiting for some retired player or their surviving family members to attempt a retroactive lawsuit for lack of duty of care.

A similar thing happened to Lambie, the Sharks medics diagnosed him with flu.

I reckon it's even harder at the pro level, as it's a job / business to the people involved on the player / staff side. I don't agree with it, but there's been a lot of this talk over here with regard to ice hockey and American football contact and what's happening to more and more guys, not just who've retired, but who are in realistic playing ages as well!

By that bit of Law, a ref should but if the doc's said okay, but could you imagine the shit storm the ref would face from not just the player, but the coach, management, etc. who'd want (selfishly) their star player to continue?

At that level I don't think it is the referees job to over rule medics, but there should be harsh penalties dished out for sides that allow their players to continue after such obvious head knocks (same thing happened to a couple of players in the last State of Origin game).

Regardless, that was a disgraceful bit of refereeing. From where he was positioned he would have had to be completely blind not to see that Aplon was an absolute rag-doll and unresponsive, he had players screaming at him about it, but he didn't even blow it up once the ruck starting going over his inert form (was that actually the referee who said "bring in medics" as the play moves away from the ruck?). For mine that decision is a much worse than any of the general play/TMO blunders in recent weeks.

Lets throw this one out there.

2 minutes into the RWC final McCaw got a stray knee into the temple (accident, not a Cooper attack) and was groggy and struggling to stand. The doc said he could continue but Joubert told him to go off. Imagine the storm it would've caused!

On the pitch the ref should overrule medical staff. You're the Only unbiased guy out there...if you see a player get banjoed like that order him off.